Methadone - Guilty or Not Guilty?

What is methadone really guilty of? Or, is it guilty at all?

My sense of it is that methadone's purpose is not to help the person addicted to heroin but to minimize the impact of their drug use on the community.

In short, it takes people who would otherwise be doing socially obnoxious things to support their heroin habit and places them on a substitute drug that is as addictive, but legally supplied and has horrible health consequences for the 'patient' who is equally as addicted, but controlled. Balance of this equation is that their socially obnoxious behaviour is minimized and the consequence of their addiction on the community is lessened... but the individual themselves is still fucked and largely no better off.

* Is this a fair assessment?
* Given other advances is it the out of date cheep option?
* What is your assessment?
* Could there be a massive class action lawsuit as a result?
* Positive experiences anyone? Negative Experiences anyone?

Question on that, Dominic. Do the methadone clinics have a 'phase out' plan to wean clients off, or is this just a matter of total replacement?

Interesting Topic Dominic. Is it about harm minimisation both to the community and the user? Which in it's self poses the question is the focus more on the harm minimisation to the community rather than the user?

To answer HIJ's question from what I've seen and been told by people who have been on the meth program there usually is a weaning program in place but its very easy to just increase the dose's again if the patient is struggling with the reduction.

Here in Brissy there is also a large black market for prescription drugs such as subutex n greys ie morph tablets. So lets hear from others regarding their experiences or knowledge of the topic.

This is in interesting topic.

It could be a beat up.

that 34 litres of methadone had gone missing.

I would be really surprised if that was the case.

Methadone comes in 5mg/ml
Methadone is an S8, which means it has to be stored and handled and used under the S8 regulations.

A litre is 1000ml, = 5,000 mg of methadone =5 grams.
5x34= 170 grams of of 100% pure methadone.
That's quite a lot.

Note that it then becomes

up to 34 litres in total from both clinics) appear to have not been properly accounted for.

(emphasis mine)

This is NOT the same as gone missing.
And the latter I find plausible.
The laws on S8's are tight.
So it's very easy to forget to dot an i or cross a t.
And that would all qualify as "not properly accounted for".

It's hard to know what the truth of it is.
but the fact that the .gov response is


A spokeswoman for NSW Health said the clinics' licence conditions had been "considerably tightened … to ensure any system shortcomings were rectified"


Makes me think it was a procedural problem with the documentation, rather than theft because if any clinic 'misplaced' 34 Litres of narcotics, they would be shut down. If a hospital lost 34 Litres of S8's that unit would be gone the very next day and everyone in that unit from the consultant down to the cleaner, would ALL be looking for new jobs.

Regards,
Konstantin

My main problem with it is the paradigm or starting point that it is ok to think for the community first and the individual last in social policy that has horrible consequences for the individual. Maybe in criminal law that is acceptable but we are talking about something different here. It's people who want help being given the shaft because it's cheaper for the state. Then it's people I care about telling me how good they are doing because they are on the program, then people whose judgement I really respect and who I care about telling me with more experience with the treatment the lack of real impact on their situation over time it has and the very significant health side effects it's caused.

Back in the day, I listened to an internal training session to health department employees outlining the program's intent and wholesale weaknesses. But methadone was all they had back then. To me it was like the people who were digging a hole with a spoon were getting the job done in some cases eventually but it's what we have available to us right now so we have to use spoons (methadone). I believe 99% of the work done on the methadone program is by the person digging, the user. They get given one spoon different to the spoon they previously used to keep digging a similar hole.

I acknowledge there is a case for the individual's quality of life increasing in some cases on the methadone treatment program. There are also cases of their health worsening.

The way forward comes from people with experience as clients of the methadone treatment program honestly sharing their insights. It's a case of those involved in administering the methadone program doing their job (and probably well), but the program itself being a health policy which may be entirely a cheap ass option today in view of alternative treatments.

Better yet, lets hear from those who have done the methadone route and then done the more modern and expensive route/s, and service providers involved with the more modern expensive route/s.

I have heard the big wigs talk on this during the bad old days, when options were non-existent... and I'm not up with it all today, but I'd like to hear about more modern and advanced alternative treatment programs and work out why the hell methadone is still the primary response. (Australian context in this case, but obviously Australia has a lot to learn from overseas experiences.)

Australia would be even further in the dark ages on drug treatment programs if not for some time ago a premier or prime minister had a family member effected directly (only time I'll ever say this - thank you for using drugs that person). Then funding got serious, then things 'evolved' in the sector from barely existent to approaching adequate but fighting a headwind. That time has more than passed. Now the political headwind won and now we are utterly lost at sea.

What is your experience / insight?

With my experience i know the private clinics where i live very rarely encourage the client to reduce - why would they it is a money making business - and i know from my clients at times the GP will not reduce their dosage either until the client actually has to demand it, as with the public done clinic they will reduce in time - in saying that i know people who have been on the done for years and although some people complain about this - it works for them they are productive members of society and go to work raise their children - they are not doing crime to stick needles in their arms and are not neglecting their children etc etc.

These days we have the bupremorphine - once again i have several clients on this as well they say subutex is great - very minimal withdrawal symptons when coming off the gear - but when they are coming of the subutex - like the methadone - it is the worst detox i have ever encountered watching - every muscle, bone from top to toe is hurting.

As far as the health problems associated with either i am not sure - i know that the sugar is not added to the methadone these days - hence teeth rotting etc.

I have had many a client say that methadone rots you from the inside out!!!!

N of course not everybody using their methadone as prescribed wich makes it hard for the ones who are serious about the program - take aways etc. Although they are getting stricter where i live - a few of my clients have been kicked of the methadone and subutex program for missing a day - but they are informed of the regulations and policies before commencing - sounds a bit harsh i know but it is also about taking responsibility.

oh well thats my 2 bobs worth for today

Hi there having been on methadone for 10yrs and currently am I've never heard of private clinics being run well not here anyhow its new to me wow! Most are pharmacy's and gov clinics that dispense it, ok firstly i think this is a one of case the program is very very strict and has guidlines for the patient and pharmacy's , Princess is right if you miss days you are sent back to your doc... 3 days total, The methadone that is avaliable now is the Galaxo smith one old one which i am on preservatives are in it... its been round since the begining then there is another brand Bio-done without preservatives in it and red in colour... but some clients dont like it and feel it doesnt work/hold the same for 24hrs, so they have a choice of the two , then there is of course buprenorphine that is only 1/4 of opiod effect not full with an antagonist in it so if you tried to use on top it wouldnt work.. alot are on buprenorphine too.... that's tablet form, thing is its individual here much like antidepressants, some dislike bup because they dont have the full opiod effects or buffers them enough when i tried it it was like being on air for side effects its brilliant but i had alot of anxiety on it and it didnt quite calm me enough, My pharm just happens to have the older type methadone so i take that side effects can b bothersome at times weight gain , sweating , itching , and the worse by far contipation on all of them... I'ts been so long for me that some times i have a love/hate r/ship with it , the problem i see and still do is people go onto this and there is no time limit, so 10yrs can fly past very quick such as my story you could look at that as a good thing and well in 10yrs I've never had 1/2 the drama's But i do feel there is a time people get enough skills up to wean off and live without there old lifestyles, such as me but then you develop a fear of what would i be like without it??? and also its hell to come off really agonising you can reduce slowly but lower you are harder it is rule of thumb, there there is a PAWS thing or called Paws where depression can last up to 6months or longer after your last 1mg.. accute post withdrawal syndrome , i am below 20mg always have been, there is big talk now of calling it opiod replacment therapy and that its a disease much like diabetes i dont quite buy that yet or endorphine deficiancy syndrome, is another buzz word.are people born with a Endorphine deficiancy ? lots of new theorys but i really really do belive life on methadone is a little over the top and theyre should be more of a time limit placed on it and more supervised follow up groups Not just put out into mainstream pharmacys and left, It then falls on the pharmacist to take responsibility , how am i how are you etc.... If you are in a Government Clinic and under there care that's fine ppl seem to have more acess to councillors etc, but alot of people have private doctors and only see him/her once 3months to get a new script review and then on there way again.. till the next 3months review, I dont see a big problem with diverting though like USA, although some incidents they like to blame it on takehomes doses like recently there was a OD of someone in a psychiatric facility well everyone blamed methadone for just being out there full stop as he bought it illegally but like anything it will be around, you cant make patients go to pharmacys daily every day its like prison then takehomes give ppl freedom to work /study, no easy solution here i think bit of track sorry but in the case of this private methadone clinic first i heard of them.. obviously there is no auditors etc...My pharm i sign it daily the dose is written etc and kept like a tight ship..... spillage recorded down too, so i really hate when these one of things get blown right out of proportion , and the news runs with it it , grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr i do belive it works im living proof of that but like i said needs to be a time limit and well i guess for the person or most ppl theyll know when that' time is anyhow to taper down im much more bigger for Harm Reduction hope that helps ask away oh and on my soapbox,
Were pretty lucky here in USA they charge big $$$$ monthly fee's 500 upwards vs 80.00 here total rip off i dont think its methadone thats guilty its people behind it again trying to make $$$ mainly these private clinics which i now realise we have here so it makes sense that most of the problems happen there, Most pharmacy's dont make a huge profit considering its given free to them and its just a dispensing charge which is only fair.. I even know of a pharmacy that only charges 1 dollar a day alot do it to help and arnt $$$ orientated it can be 7-9 dollars a day in NSW, I would however like to see a sliding scale bought in on income as presently people who work and dont work are charged the same, 80.00 might not sound alot but it is when the average script is 4dollars a month for say for a box of tablets if your not working.. and we dont get that 80.00 supplemented from benefits, but im happy with 20 a week as i know alot of people pay more, I think as soon as problem happens like this its zoomed in on takeaways doses for some reason !! we only get 5max a week here in the USA they get 30 in one hit monthly takehomes, but of course they have more OD diversion problems so i think its fine here regarding that just hysteria again and blame the whole setup for one bad apple.but the missing bottles are a concern as 30-40mg could kill a non opiod tolerant person . regards skeet


here is that misguided article saying 18takeaways well you could say i get 100 over a period of time too they didnt put week/month

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,21744886-2682,00.html

Well I've got some time now, so.

My main experience with methadone is through the psych system.
In a 30 bed locked ward you will typically have 1 to 5 people on it at any given time.

At all the public wards (e.g. StV, Box Hill) they used methadone properly and they weaned them off as fast as their bodies would tolerate it.
However this program does nothing for mental addiction.
But they saw that more as the job of counsellors and the social's I think.

For what my opinion is worth, I think methadone has a place in short term therapy. That is getting someone from whatever they are using to zero in a time frame of weeks to a few months.
But the person has to be serious or it's a non-starter as they will muck you around up hill and down dale and then go straight back to using.

The use of methadone for years (in the context of weaning) is bullshit, it's basically a form of replacement for addicts.

That said I do see some value in getting people off adulterated street crap and onto something that is of a set dose. When someone is on methadone we know they are getting 35mg, exactly 35mg and it's methadone, not a bit of heroin + all sorts of other rubbish.

Also (if you are doing it properly) you are forming a therapeutic relationship with the person, which is a link to the health system. And after a while they will often start to bring up other things. For some people I think any positive relationship is a good step.

I see replacement therapy as being better than formula X heroin down a back lane. But they should call it for what it is.

Basically in brief.

Uncertain supply vs Dependable supply
Dubiously funded vs Subsidised.
Exploitative relationship with dealer vs theraputic relationship with social workers, nurses, Doctors and D&A counsellors.
Dubious substance vs known quantity and uncontaminated.
IV route vs Oral route(safer).

I think it's unfair to say there is no gain for the addicted person in a methadone program, it's not a purely one way street. Nor would I pretend that methadone is some kind of manna from heaven.

I too would like to hear more than I do about the more recent developments in the field. Because our nursing course sort of glazed over this area.

Regards,
Konstantin

:mad:
Methadone saved my life, and I hate hearing about people that are ill (pissed off) at the program. Regardless of what exactly their ill about in relation to anything to do with the program.
It helps people, and saves lives. If you can't keep track of what you've paid, and what it's for, then go back to tha smack! :p

DJ Chris.

I also believe that methadone does work - like anything it is not for everyone - but i think if people need to be on it for 10+ years so be it and it is keeping them off illicit drugs - well it is to a point keeping our streets safer -i.e. reduction in crime rate.

Like i mentioned i have clients who have been on the methadone program for a long time and they are produtive members of society - working and raising their children - as previously when they were on heroin - work was either selling their bodies or doing crime to support their habits and as for their children - well they did their best - but as most know - the drug would be a priority to food etc (not in all cases i know).

Obviously you get the monority who abuse the system and either sell it or are shooting it up themselves - but there are also those who are serious and work the program and get the most out of it - and used properly is very effective in reducing the cravings for heroin or prescription tablets.

For those on methadone or have been on methadone - well done and stick with it - if it means you have to be on it the rest of your life so be it - dont jump off it to quickly.

zzDJChris good news im glad its working for you, PurplePrincess I have had many a client say that methadone rots you from the inside out!!!! Its just a Myth I got caught up in that one early stages too same with the teeth!!! What it more than likely is , is due to better health people eat better, sugar etc and that i think rots the teeth not the drug, although there has been alot saying it makes you crave sugar and i have to admit it does do that, but like Anti Depressant meds can make up put on weight too its a matter of balance eating right brushing teeth , I'ts almost like a type 2 diabetic eating bags of lollies and saying oh im diabetic type 2 but i can take my med and sit back and eat all the lollies in the world, if they exercised did that little bit more etc.. I think its also about finding the right dose for people too and not concentrating on the numbers, like omg 100mg 200mg but more what suits the person be it 10mg or 200mg, is another point i realise there is a Cap in place with gov clinics as people worry about OD etc, it would always make sense to start low and work your way up.... i want to also Emphazise Methadone does not make you *HIGH* when stablised you feel normal.not noddy not high, .
Qoate
The use of methadone for years (in the context of weaning) is bullshit, it's basically a form of replacement for addicts, yes it is a form of replacment just like seratonin replacment is for depression, Hormone replacment, etc etc some will need that for life too, everyone is individual, sure its easy to stay on it for yrs but i dont see a problem with that if your ok with it and it keeps you safe your getting it clean from a safe environment, I've read loads on people tapering down to and then relapsing within 2months and using something else or struggling like crazy, there is other options such as Buprenorphine without side effects and once agian no HIGH!!!!!just normal.... whatever works, Even on Rove on sunday night there was a mockup news thing and girl goes who want to be on methadone!!! another stupid negative conatation when they have no idea what theyre talking about.... I think education is the key really after all whats the alternative loads of sick people running about... I just caught wind of a commerical...



...."I waited til I lost my best friend", "I waited til he totalled his car", "I waited until he was arrested", "I waited til my son was dead" DONT WAIT FOR SOMEONE TO HIT BOTTOM before you talk to them about drug treatment."

Thats the gist of it. Very good job, IMHO, I did not catch who did it

That "hit bottom" belief is just another drug treatment Myth ...that needs to go. That want treatment for it to be effective, is to me, the same AS the 12 step community saying "IT WORKS, IF YOU WORK IT or, IF I CAN DO IT ANYBODY CAN!!! there's tons more of those, BUT they never helped me, one bit. I guess, I didn't WANT it BAD enough! Nah, I spent years , and lots of money trying to get & stay clean, but some nut can tell me - " I didn't WANT it bad enough! uhuh..would you tell a depressed person they didnt want it bad enough or keep coming back it works if u work it!!!! its outdated attitudes I cannot Emphazise enough there's absolutely no point going to NA meetings society's prefered way hopefully its changing !!!! and relapsing time after time being miserable, and they say using is the definition of insanity well so is going back day after day and and nothing changes,i dont see methadone as using though, I'ts a shame and its not because i didnt give it a fair go i did for 1yr but just like depression there is something in the brain that needs that certain chemical, there's actual talk of addiction being a disease not a choice thing like the majority think..of my soapox again like i previously mentioned in the 10yrs I've managed to get a nice home, friends, studied and want to go back later in the yr , nice things and most ppl who meet me dont even have a clue im on it.and i often no need to mention it, you can see why i would be hesitant to taper down and perhaps risk loosing it all, but sure id love to medication free in a perfect world

Punter

To answer HIJ's question from what I've seen and been told by people who have been on the meth program there usually is a weaning program in place but its very easy to just increase the dose's again if the patient is struggling with the reduction.

Here in Brissy there is also a large black market for prescription drugs such as subutex n greys ie morph tablets. So lets hear from others regarding their experiences or knowledge of the topic.

Its ok to struggle with a taper and ok to go back up a bit... its how alot do it sucessfully, and very very slowly is a rule of thumb 1mg -6weeks is my advice below 20mg , and well if your doing it hard go back up a little but not above your normal dose i dont think many would, Its about timing too the time needs to be right for some, I'ts up to you and your GP how u taper , some may blind dose and not know what theyre given some do 1mg some do 10mg drops on higher doses but once you hit 20mg or below you dont have the Volume % to compensate like when your higher, its when you get past 0 it counts ive seen loads and loads come back in 3months time or use other substances! or worse back to theyre DOC and die,
There will always be a blackmarket for things im sure valium has one and well now Bup does so i guess in 5yrs Bup will be like methadone id dare say, its unfortunate when someone who's opiod intolerant who gets hold of 100mg of it drinks it then chases it down with some vodka or something dies , then you get some coroner wanting to change the whole system and make ppl go in to the pharm's daily and be liquid handcuffed to the pharmacy! no freedom, degrading and becomes a lifestyle in itself, routine the old saying go anywhere but be back in 24hrs..Myself i go in get it see u next week and i feel less depressed about it as when i had only 2 takehomes a week its not on my mind all the time, Alchol is far worse yet more acceptable,


Philosophy of treatment; What is the real goal?


Much more research on buprenorphine and addiction in general is needed, but as important is the philosophy of addiction treatment. By that I mean what is the real goal of the treatment? How is success measured? Years ago there were no treatment medications, so measuring success was easy, if the patient didn’t take any drugs/medications for an extended period of time they had succeeded.

A study published in 2003 compared a 6 day buprenorphine detox to 1 year of buprenorphine maintenance. 70% of the maintenance group remained addiction free for the entire year, 0% of the detox group lasted 60 days, and 20% of them died during the 1 year study. Both groups were offered identical psychosocial care throughout the entire year. The detox group was “drug free” after day 7, or “clean” as the 12step groups term it. Is “drug free” or “clean” a reasonable goal of treatment? Is the drug really the problem, after all millions of people take opioid painkillers and don’t become addicted. No, “Addiction” is the problem, and is what the treatment is aimed at. Addiction is the uncontrollable compulsive behavior that ruins lives.

At one time “drug free” and “addiction free” were synonymous, but not anymore. Now someone can be on a medication such as buprenorphine and still be addiction free. So how do we measure success? We measure success by the amount of positive change in one’s life, by ending the addictive behavior first and not being sidetracked with goals of “drug free”. Obviously, if “addiction free” can be achieved without medication, that is the more logical route, but people should not put their lives at risk to obtain “drug free” when “addiction” is what is actually hurting them. Taking a pill each morning is not addiction, even if withdrawal occurs in its absence. That is “physical dependence” and is normal and manageable. It is secondary to the real goal of ending the addiction, that’s what’s important.

Relapse is a life threatening event. It is sometimes minimized because only survivors of previous relapses remain here to evaluate their risk. The more episodes of surviving relapse, the lower the perceived risk. Every step should be taken to minimize the chance of relapse. The first 90 days are the most critical and when most relapses and overdose deaths occur. The rush to reach the less important goal of “drug free” puts people at risk of relapse. In the study mentioned above 20% of the detox group died attempting to reach the goal of “drug free”. This skewed priority of treatment, lead them to seek “drug/medication free” instead of the important goal of “addiction free” and cost them their lives.

Some cannot get out of the “drug free” mentality and don’t see years of “addiction free” life while in treatment as success. They only see success as what happens after treatment. Science has shown us this is an unreasonable point of view. Addiction is a chronic brain disease. It can persist for many months, years and in some cases indefinitely. For the latter, stopping treatment would mean certain relapse or a life of misery. Does this mean they will never succeed? No. “drug free” must not be considered the goal of treatment no more than “insulin free” be the goal of diabetes treatment. Sure it would be preferable if neither condition required medication but that is not realistic. Ending addictive behavior is successful treatment whether it requires a medication or not.

Everyone should ask themselves: What is my goal of my addiction treatment? What is important in my life? What are my priorities? When the focus is on your quality of life instead of someone else’s definition of “clean” the answers become clear.

Congratulations to everyone who had the wisdom to seek an evidence-based treatment I wish you all continued success :)

Skeet

great information and great post!!

The use of methadone for years (in the context of weaning) is bullshit, it's basically a form of replacement for addicts,

yes it is a form of replacment just like seratonin replacment is for depression, Hormone replacment, etc etc some will need that for life too, everyone is individual, sure its easy to stay on it for yrs but i dont see a problem with that if your ok with it and it keeps you safe your getting it clean from a safe environment, I've read loads on people tapering down to and then relapsing within 2months and using something else or struggling like crazy, there is other options such as Buprenorphine without side effects and once agian no HIGH!!!!!just normal.... whatever works,


You misunderstand me, I didn't mean "replacement therapy is bullshit"
I meant "Calling replacement therapy 'withdrawal' is bullshit" they are two seperate approaches each with strengths and weaknesses.

I don't think replacement therapy is the holy grail of addiction treatment.
But I see it as a signifigant improvement on formula X adulterated street heroin.
I realise that they pass it off as withdrawal therapy for political reasons, but I don't like ideas being conflated like that.

Regards,
Konstantin

But I see it as a signifigant improvement.... Excately Konstantìn that's the main thing and goal i guess political or not if it helps it helps skeet

the thing with methadone or any other pharmacotherapy (spelt wrong i know) is that it does help with the withdrawal process i.e. the person is not suffering from physical cravings hence if they can deal with the psychological cravings the methadone or bup etc is holding them enough not to use - so i would see this as helping with withdrawals - you dont suffer all the pain associated from going cold turkey or withdrawal regime offered at a lot of rehabs which for most addicts does fuck all anyway.

Like i have mentioned a lot of people on methadone are now "productive" members of society and are not judged as when they were heroin addicts - most people wouldnt even ackowledge them to give them the time of day.

PP excately also adequete dose can also stop all mental cravings too and psycholocial torment alot of ppl are u in underdosed hell.....meaning mentally there still thinking about using!!! A good dose will stop both.... But also alot have duel diagnoses problems and might need anti Depressants or anti Psych on top......I was suprised at how many are duel diagnosed too. including myself skeet

Re: Dual Diagnosis when i worked at the rehab we had to do a survey and one of the questions was to estimate the number of dual diagnosis clients that come through the centre - well of those with an actual diagnosis would probably at a guess be about 70% but we estimated 90% as most clients who walked through the door had a mental illness.

Ah that is interesting and thanks for bringing that to my attention re: right dose and pyschological cravings

hang in there Skeet you are doing well

As Someone Who Has Been On Methadone Myself

My Advice To You Would Be Stay The Frig Away From It!!!!!!

Harm Minimisation Yer Sure

Hey - Let Put These Doctors On A Good Dose Of Methadone And Then After A Year We Wont Give It To Them

I Would Like To See What Your Opition About Methadone Is Then!!!!

Using Methadone Will Not Stop Your Addiction - That The Biggest Lead Of Crap I've Ever Heard

If Your An Addict - You Have To Start Looking At The Reasons Why Your An Addict - The Underlying Problems (that Is - If You Really Wnt To Stop Using)

Your Addiction Will Never Go Away By Just Using More And More Methadone

I Would Really Like To See Anyone Who Is Despensing Methadone On The Program Themselves And See Them Come Off It!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Skeet - Shut The Fuck Up - You Have Fucken No Idea What You Are Talking About.

The Same Go's With The Rest Of You So Called 'experts'.

Lets Get The People Who Really Know (first Hand) What They Are Talking About.

E.i. - People Who Have Been On The Methadone (for At Least 2 Years Straight) And Have Been Totally Clean (for At Least 2 Years Straight) To Talk.

The Rest Of You Really Have No Right To Act Like You Know What Your Talking About.

So Shut It!!

This post has been edited by Tom to remove a threat of violence aimed at a fellow member.

Your An Idiot

Madlion its clear your issues are more than methadone or addiction?? with threats like that.......oh and btw i have been on methadone for more then 2yrs Try 8yrs :) and im clean and consider myself clean.... i dont actively use anyhow im entitled to my opinion just like you are, why are you so angry? prob just another stiring troll. skeet .....

Also id like to point out it does stop addictive behaviour at an adequate dosage both physically and mentally and for some thats a huge relief perhaps you were not dosed right, i didnt say methadone is the be all and end all there is Bup too! Instead of attacking ppl why dont u just say your experience might be more helpfull skeet

Mate, it's retards like you that are the reason why people can never get off drugs!

You go around telling people that 'your just a addict' and 'you will always be an addict'.

You need methadone, just like a diabetic needs there insuline everday, and noboby every get to the root cause, and reason of why they acually are addicts.

Well, Sorry if I offended you. It's people like you that piss me off! Look around at all the fucken addicts you seen.

Nobody is every bothering to look at the root causes.

Yer, you get a few people talking a bit of physicolagy and shit, and then you get people like you, making it worse!

Where are the people dealing with addicts emotions and truma's.

If an addict wants to get totally free, they have to deal with there childhood and usally other family stuff. Especially things to do with there parents.

I know this stuff most people wouldnt understand. Look, I guarentee anyone who is a serious addict has had some form of emotional truama in there life including physical or sexual abuse, and/or have parents who are addicts or alcoholics themselves.

A lot of this stuff is hereditory, when you are born, you your parents are the people who give your 'blue print', which is your make up - and there 'stuff' is passed down to you.

An other way that you can become an addict is buy the way you are treated when you are young.

But this can be fixed. The problem is, nobody really understand this and there is hardly any people around acually dealing with this type of stuff.

You've just got doctors giving you more and more drugs.

And then you've got places like na. Don't get me wrong na is trying to do a great job.

But lets be real here, you walk into a na meeting, how many people look like they are totally free?

I believe the main problem na has is, is some of the things they say in there little ritual. ei 'my name is ____ and I'am an addict'.

Let's think about this... every time you go to a meeting, you are confirming your an addict?

Look, this is a basic physicology law (101 stuff) - you keep telling your self your an addict - well your never going to be free from an addiction are you?

madlion,

well the name says it all hey. Well us so called experts some of us have walked the methadone road - you are quite quick to judge arent u????

Skeet has the experience of methadone to write what he did and i think that u threatening anybody on a forum doesnt say much for your personality??? Why would you want to knock somebody out for having an opinion - somebody who as they mentioned is on methadone and it is effective.

Ok i am assuming by your posts that you were an addict then used methadone and are now clean - and you know what that is great and good on u - BUT not everybody is like u obviously - and if it works for them why the not stay on it.

i think you need to look outside the square you live in - and btw this forum is not to jump on here and judge people by what they do or have done.

so next time why dont u jump on here with something constructive to say instead of insults.

hope you have a great day

Madlion,

"Nobody is every bothering to look at the root causes"

Yes there is and that is my philosophy on addiction - there is ALWAYS a reason why people use.

"The problem is, nobody really understand this and there is hardly any people around acually dealing with this type of stuff."

Yes there are people like me who give a fuck and treat all as equals without the psycho bullshit.

oh, come off it!

we are talkin about a serious subject here, we aint talkin about eating icecream sundae's.

People are dying everyday from drugs.

There are people out there tring there best to get off them, and you've people like yous' feeding them bullshit about them being an addict for life.

What a sad a miserable life that you are offering them.

Then some one has something stong to say about all the bs and you try to shut me down, ha!

We invite and indeed encourage debate on these forums .. We also appreciate and respect the fact that participants of debates have different views and experiences. We are not into censorship, but threats of violence towards other forum members will not be tolerated .... Also, these forums are read by many age groups so I would ask you to consider this and to modify your language accordingly .. This is a contoversial debate on this thread and it is a welcomed debate.

Madlion: Your input based on your own experiences and viewpoint is welcome as is anyone elses. I have removed the offending threat from your previous posting and I must ask you to take in what you are reading .. Normally a threat to a fellow member would result in a instant ban from the forums, on this occasion I am prepared to issue you with a warning.

Mate, it's retards like you that are the reason why people can never get off drugs!

Not its ppl like me that help them from dying, why are you putting methadone in the bad drug class sounds like your talking about Herion here?? ur getting confused were talking opiod replacment therapy here not drugs!!!!!!!!!
do you really think that if i wanted to get of methadone i would course i would regardless of what someone said.....Ive had friends die because of herion where are they now??? perhaps if they where on methadone like myself theyd be here 8yrs later?? isnt that worth something?...... or Bup!!!! Btw do u put Bup in the same class of drugs im curious?......
I dont get round telling ppl once and addict always and addict but yeah they pretty much are.... it just depends on what road they choose to help themselves NA/ or Pharmalogical.... if u want to sugar coat it and pretend addiction is just a cold and you get over it then my friend your in denial......

As for root cause ??? have i ever said just take your methadone and go home?? course there is councilling combined etc.. some ppl are fine just taking methadone and going to work..they have no duel diagnoses issues..... or traumas!!!!!! What im saying is giving the patient some stability breathing space so then can work on the issues,do you know how stressfull doctor shopping scoring is? not to mention how much at risk your putting yourself at for disease?? so yes Harm reduction is an issue, methadone is clean safe and affordable, And purple princess would know this too im sure she'd much rather someone on methadone/ bup come to her for councilling then be on herion and high and nodding whilst she's helping them??....... And once again i gotta repeat like a broken record.....METHADONE DOES NOT MAKE A PERSON HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!! it stop Physicall and mental cravings for your DOC, at the right dose for you, where are the ppl helping not slamming, well ask Purple Princess she does and is the area of councilling and helps mmt patients , so there's your answer and well u gotta help yaself too !!!!!!!

you said A lot of this stuff is hereditory, when you are born, you your parents are the people who give your 'blue print', which is your make up - and there 'stuff' is passed down to you, your contridicting yourself a bit here because above you said You go around telling people that 'your just a addict' and 'you will always be an addict'. well if its hereditory yes u will always be an addict..

oh, come off it!

we are talkin about a serious subject here, we aint talkin about eating icecream sundae's.

People are dying everyday from drugs.( By drugs are u talking methadone)?????

There are people out there tring there best to get off them( Them or methadone??) , and you've people like yous' feeding them bullshit about them being an addict for life.

What a sad a miserable life that you are offering them. ( Im not offering them anything just an experience ppl have choices and i think its good to hear some positives of it for a change that's what i do offer... )

yes they are dying every day but were talking Methadone here not everything else....... do u want more dying ????
im sorry but im not feeding ya bullshit just my experience why cant you accept that?? ....if i am why is there 1000s of methadone patients Oz wide??.... can i ask why you think its a sad miserable life ?????? you can have sad miserable life not on methadone too? trust me NA did that for me!!!!! and a few rehabs !! .....if you have a good treatment plan with your doc/ councillor and are on Bup/Methadone whats the problem its no difference then being on some other med or mental health med??? and like i said there is Bup not just methadone but i guess your feelings are the same for bup too?? the only problem i see is some ppl take there dose and do nothing much like a diabetic type 2 eating the same crap and taking a pill and expecting things to change !! sorry well we all need to put in a little work in too!!! Lion you need to educate yaself more really before sprouting off Expectations for Substance Abuse Treatment Often Clash with Reality

Expectations are high.

Many people, including drug users themselves, have mistaken beliefs about drug addiction and recovery from addiction. Two of the most pervasive myths are that "a person can get off drugs alone" and that "most addicts can become permanently drug-free." These ideas stem in part from notions that continued drug use is voluntary and that a person's inability to overcome addiction stems solely from character flaws or a lack of willpower.

Society has differing standards of success for treating chronic conditions or nicotine or alcohol addictions than for treating addiction to injection drugs.
What Are Some Realistic Expectations for Substance Abuse Treatment?

Research has shown that comprehensive and sustained substance abuse treatment:

* can help individuals reduce or stop using illegal or dangerous drugs, thereby greatly improving their functioning in the family, at work, and in society; and

* is as effective as the treatments for other chronic conditions, including diabetes and asthma.

Research has also demonstrated that a variety of effective approaches to substance abuse treatment exist that can help people achieve long-term control. This control allows people to reach important goals, including reduced drug use, reduced criminal activity, gainful employment, and more stable life situations.

Extensive experience has revealed a number of issues that are key to successful substance abuse treatment:

* Treatment should be readily available to individuals who need it.

* Individuals need to be engaged in treatment for an adequate length of time. For example, participation in outpatient or residential programs for less than 90 days is of limited or no effectiveness. Patients should receive a minimum of 12 months of methadone maintenance treatment or for some longer!!!

* Treatment for many chronic conditions involves daily decisions about issues such as diet, exercise, or medication. Similarly, "recovery" from drug addiction is a dynamic process that requires a person to decide to "stay sober" one day at a time. Recovery is a long-term effort, often requiring multiple episodes of treatment.

* Addiction often occurs simultaneously with other physical or mental health problems. The treatment plan must take those into consideration.

* Treatment programs work better if they are tailored to the person's characteristics and needs. No single type of treatment is appropriate for everyone.

* Treatment must be reassessed periodically so it can be adjusted as needed.

Key Issues in Effective Methadone Maintenance Treatment

Dose

Most patients require a dose of 60-120 mg/day to achieve optimum therapeutic effects of methadone. Compared to those on lower doses, patients on higher doses are shown to stay in treatment longer, use less heroin and other drugs, and have lower incidence of HIV infection. Some patients need even higher doses for fully effective treatment.

Studies of methadone effectiveness have shown a dose-response relationship, with higher doses more effective in reducing heroin use, helping patients stay in treatment, and reducing criminal activity. Despite compelling evidence that doses need to be determined on an individual basis, that higher doses are more effective, and that doses of 60-120 mg/day are required for most patients, some clinics administer fixed doses to all patients and provide less than optimal doses.

Length of treatment

Studies have shown that good outcomes from substance abuse treatment are unequivocally contingent on adequate length of treatment. A research-based guide on the principles of substance abuse treatment, released in 1999 by the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA), notes that "For methadone maintenance, 12 months of treatment is the minimum, and some opiate-addicted individuals will continue to benefit from methadone maintenance treatment over a period of years." Despite this fact, the majority of MMT patients leave before 1 year, either because they drop out, the clinic encourages them to leave, or they are discharged for not complying with program regulations. Most of those who discontinue MMT later relapse to heroin use. This illustrates the difficulty of the addiction recovery process and the fact that individuals may need multiple episodes of treatment over time.

Nobody is trying to shut you down Madlion - there are people out here who work with addicts - i worked in a rehab for quiet a while - and loved my job - but hey i do my job and i cannot control what my client does when they leave the rehab - same as what i do now - once they leave this room they are free to do what they like. I can offer them all the support in the world - i work with their issues and try to get to the "root" of why they use - but sometimes its just not enough.

I am not saying rehab is the answer - for fucks sake - i wish i had the answers - but a life on methadone / bup is better than a life on heroin or whatever ur drug of choice is - i have said it before and i will say it again - whilst on methadone a lot of people still lead productive lives ie. work and raise their children etc - whilst on heroin their priorities are different - you dont have to walk the road of a heroin addict to know the pain and how miserable life can be - as you dont have to have a cancer to be an oncologist.

U have ur opinion and i respect that but you need to respect the other opinions on here and sometimes there is no right and wrong.

Speak to any addict and of course they want to be drug free - but if methadone/bup helps them well what is the problem?????????? If it helps them to maintain work, relationships, feel worthwhile - how is that bad????

U were an addict and how did that make u feel - and how did u feel when u were on methadone -- i am sure you felt more worthwhile.

I dont think we are feeding them bullshit - ok how many addicts do you know that have been clean for a period of time that do NEVER think about using - if you have walked the road u would know u can never be complacent and u can pick up at any time u have to be conscious of it all the time and always be thinking one step ahead as so not to use.

And i know this is a serious subject - it is sad, heartbreaking, emotionally fucking draining some days - but you know what i wouldnt swap it for anything - at least everyone of my clients know that someone out there gives a fuck about them when they have nothing else -which sometimes is a reason enough to use again for those who are clean or trying to give up.

madlion u are the one offering them a sad and miserable life - myself and skeet are offering them an alternative to herion etc and the chance of living a "normal" life to a degree.

Dont judge us because of our opinions ok - just like i will not judge u for yours

skeet,

I just noticed they your last reply was 'i have been on methadone for 8 years'.

(so you know what you are talking about)

But you didn't say anything about not taking any other drugs in that period, funny that!!!!

Why - because using methadone is only every cover up you addiction! True?

You have never acually dealt with the addictive behavior.

You keep trying to tell people, 'you will always be an addict'.

You just helpless. Mate, if thats what you believe, to bad for you. But why are you going are telling everyone else that too??

Why? Lets get to the truth.

You want to give statistic. I could give you stastics that prove anything!

But lets get to the real point.

Taking methadone is never going to resolve the real problem of the persons addiction!!!!

And there are to many people around telling them it will.

The truth is - (and i'am sure I could prove with some great stastics) people will still use all types of other drugs - even when they are methadone. And when they come off it they will get another habit again.

Why? because they still havn't dealt with there addiction.

Let be real here - If you want to live the rest of your life on methadone, (and i'am sure still using aswell) fine!

But thats not what i'am talking about.

I'am talking about total freedom from drugs.

If you don't believe this is posible for you, I'am very sad for you.

You have been brainwashed by a government system who either does not care or does not know how to REALLY deal with addictive behaviour and the causes and can only offer a baid aid sollution to the problem.

You need to stop believing the lie.

the thing with statistics realistically is how accurate r they - as if i looked i am sure i could find you statistics that agree that methadone works - and as usual the minority who abuse the system make it bad for those who only USE methadone - believe u me i know a lot of people on methadone who also use periodically BUT i also know a lot who are serious about it and do not use - so really it works both ways.

I mean if we lived in a perfect world addicts would turn to meth / bup and then reduce and be drug free and never use again - but realistically that is never going to happen is it??????????

So do you consider yourself an addict??? a recovering addict???? or clean straight person????????

Methadone doesnt make you a non-addict or take away the issues on why u used in the first place but what does?????????? Its always going to be there regardless of what self help u have done.

N not all people on methadone were heroin addicts either ok some were addicted to pain medication and i know of a person who was prescribed it for migraines (why god knows but she was). It is very easy to judge that if somebody is on methadone then they are automatically a heroin addict - yeah sure most are but not all.

U need to be more open minded

well, skeet

was on heroin for 10yrs and methadone for 3.

and have been clean for 3yrs and don't think about using

so prove that with your statisics, fuckhead!!

madlion,

why are you getting so upset and defensive this is all a matter of opinion.

u know what good on u and congratulations for being clean - that is a huge acheivement.

I really dont think there is a right or wrong answer - everybody is different and has different views on topics.

Obviously this topic is close to home for you.

can u honestly say u never even think about using?????

i have a client so will be back madlion - as i am sure you are going to post some more

glad to see ur attitude has got better too in that 3 yrs ! glad ur willpower got ya through or did u get feetox'ed off or not compliant and a disgrunteld methadone patient? :D

PP still hasnt said how why where in the 3yrs what u been doin? btw i been clean 8yrs too :)

where's that serenity prayer when ya need it lol !!!!!

yeah god give the serenity to ACCEPT THE THINGS I CANNOT CHANGE.

personally i dont see methadone as 'using' i see it as helping like insulin for diabetics and chemotherapy for cancer - it helps u get through the day - there is no cure - not yet anyway.

skeet,

I just noticed they your last reply was 'i have been on methadone for 8 years'.

(so you know what you are talking about)

But you didn't say anything about not taking any other drugs in that period, funny that!!!!

Why - because using methadone is only every cover up you addiction! True?

You have never acually dealt with the addictive behavior.

You keep trying to tell people, 'you will always be an addict'.

You just helpless. Mate, if thats what you believe, to bad for you. But why are you going are telling everyone else that too??

Why? Lets get to the truth.

You want to give statistic. I could give you stastics that prove anything!

But lets get to the real point.

Taking methadone is never going to resolve the real problem of the persons addiction!!!!

And there are to many people around telling them it will.

The truth is - (and i'am sure I could prove with some great stastics) people will still use all types of other drugs - even when they are methadone. And when they come off it they will get another habit again.

Why? because they still havn't dealt with there addiction.

Let be real here - If you want to live the rest of your life on methadone, (and i'am sure still using aswell) fine!

But thats not what i'am talking about.

I'am talking about total freedom from drugs.

If you don't believe this is posible for you, I'am very sad for you.

You have been brainwashed by a government system who either does not care or does not know how to REALLY deal with addictive behaviour and the causes and can only offer a baid aid sollution to the problem.

You need to stop believing the lie.


PP thanks well said back there !

Madlion no i havnt drank or taken drugs in that 8yrs ! Period
I,m not telling anyone else what to do only what works for me ok.... they have options better options then methadone infact ..Bup!!!!!!!

I dont believe the government.... i believe what works for me if that's brainwashed well so be it...... i cant afford and am to old to go through that bs of loosing everything i have again..... simple! ....i havn't resigned the fact ill be on methadone the rest of my life, infact 2yrs at the most more is my goal but i know some ppl are better off on it for life if they keep on relapsing , but if i did need it for life well i guess i would and it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, but speaking for myself i will x that bridge when and if i need too, i do know 1 person who has been on it for 20yrs she's doing fine with her kids.... home partner work.. course its not going to solve the problems but in combination with therapy! Good MH Plan it has a pretty good outcome vs sitting back at home watchn tv i guess.... you sound like you need to get back on it your pretty angry that my folks is an example of unmedicated untreated struggling opiod addict
Now having said that lets hear about the 3yrs you where on methadone??? why you stopped it how u stopped it and what ur doing now? have you achieved your goals? I await your response :)

you wonder why I'am mad???

how thick are you??

Do you know how many people are out there tying to get off (all) drugs. And the people like yourself telling them they will be an addict the rest of there life. Wake and smell the coffee!

No wonder half the people never really try to get stop using. - They have herd from people like you the whole time telling this bs.

Just because YOU have never met anyone who has completely stop using - you just think - well that's it.

you talk like you know the answers to everything, brainwashing people with your stat and bs (though you will claim you don't know all the answers) - giving them no sense of hope or ANYTHING.


But your happy to give every one your thoughts and statistic on everything about drugs - relapasing ect - and you can't even stay off methadone!!

Oh, you will say - I consider myself clean!!

Mate, what credituals do you have to be give advice?? eh?

Telling people who are trying to get off drugs - your just an addicted, and you , might have to be on methadone the rest of your life.

You want to know why I'am pissed - I'll tell you -

(I know) There is such a feeling of helpless when you are trying to stop using -

And all you are doing is feeding into it.

It people like you that had me feel so fucked and helpless when I was trying to stop using and made me think that I could never stop using.

If I had of kept on listening to your people with your sort of shit and reasoning (inc methadone clinics), I would not be clean now.

Of course I'am mad

Just admit it skeet,

YOU DON'T REALLY WANT TO COME OF THE METHADONE (do you?)

My personal view of maintainance is that it is like supported accomodation.
Some people get a house without it.
Some people move through supported accomodation and straight into normal housing.
Some people take a long time.
Some people have so many issues they will live in supported housing for the rest of their lives.

Does this mean that supported housing is bad?
Ofcourse not.

I think the proper use of maintainance is like a half way mark during which we get the other issues sorted out so that they can have a crack at being drug free.
If we on the other hand say "Here's your methodone, piss off" that's using it to warehouse them and that's a bad use of it.

Now I'll anticipate you'll say that some people will abuse it and just deliberatly stay on it and not try to move off, because "They don't really want to", well that's their loss. It's still a useful program.

Konstantin

yeah god give the serenity to ACCEPT THE THINGS I CANNOT CHANGE.

personally i dont see methadone as 'using' i see it as helping like insulin for diabetics and chemotherapy for cancer - it helps u get through the day - there is no cure - not yet anyway.

I'd expect more from you purpleprincess in your reply. I am far from confident in supporting the position you propose.

my point is that some people use methadone to be productive members of society as in my experience it keeps them "clean" from using illicit drugs.

my point with the serenity prayer bit to Madlion was that there are some things we cannot change regardless of how much we fight for it - believe me i know and have tried - the welfare system in the Illawarra leaves a lot to be desired.

I am not sure what your point is Dominic - i just think that if methadone is effective i personally dont see the problem and to be honest i havent always had that opinion before i worked in the D&A industry i was i wouldnt say against it but my opinion it was just replacing and illegal opiod to a prescribed opoid and it was my ignorance and lack of eduction that brought me to this conclusion but since working with addicts my opinion has changed (obviously).

I do understand that diabeties and cancer is not a choice and probably not a good example - but Madlion is very angry and to me it is just about respecting each others opinions - i am not saying i am right or that he is wrong. I believe each to their own - obviously he is very passionate about it and has done fantastic to be clean for so long and completely drug free but unfortunately there are lot of people and like me you would deal with them i am sure if not on a regular basis periodically - so basically what my point was if it is effective then use it - it beats robbing peoples homes and doing armed robberies to get ur next shot!!!

i am just supporting what is right for each indvidual and they have that right to chose what is right for them without being judged because of it - and that is just not with methadone - with anything they chose to do within reason of course!!

Just admit it skeet,

YOU DON'T REALLY WANT TO COME OF THE METHADONE (do you?)

MadLion Its you that had yourself feeling so fked and helpless by not choosing proper treatment and it shows!!!!! and i dont take pleasure in that either...
You still havn't answer'd my questions about your experience ? do i really want to come of not really why would i when it helps me :) This is not a race and if recovery to YOU means that you have to worry so much about what someone elses recovery means to them -then I don't need your kind of recovery....you can have the words CLEAN< RECOVERY>SOBER> I will take the words "DOING PRETTY DAMN WELL, and LIVING LIFE AGAIN" as my definition of MY recovery., i am not the methadone clinic or government here although i did work for them once upon a time lol.. I am just a person telling you my experience lighten up lion there ! ppl like you that cause more harm then good by causing Hysteria!!!!! I've not claimed im a social worker either or have credentials well life credentials , but you will get some ppl who do have credentials that i've spoken with loads of health care workers pharmacists who are and will advocate for opiod replacment :) Besides, for ME recovery will NEVER be about whether I take drugs or not it will be about how much of my life is used up thinking, craving, wanting and hunting for a drug and how my body mind and spirit feels.....We get so caught up in the what whys and how longs of taking or abstaining from drugs that we forget that addiction doesn't have a damn thing to do with ingesting drugs once your an addict. Its how you feel when YOUR NOT taking drugs that makes you an addict.

When I am actively addicted to Oxy's or pain pills *never used Herion* it consumes my entire *BEING* I find no other joy in life besides the use of IT. When I am in remission on methadone my life is about LIFE...a pain patient who takes narcotics so that they can live a full life is NOT addicted, they are dependant. That is what I am to methadone....and while on it the symptoms of my addiction are under control. but--even if I wasn't on methadone or taking illicit drugs I would still be an addict....I would just be a miserable addict counting the minutes and seconds of my "clean time" and comparing myself to other addicts who aren't "clean" to make myself feel better about my misery.

My personal view of maintainance is that it is like supported accomodation.
Some people get a house without it.
Some people move through supported accomodation and straight into normal housing.
Some people take a long time.
Some people have so many issues they will live in supported housing for the rest of their lives.

Does this mean that supported housing is bad?
Ofcourse not.

I think the proper use of maintainance is like a half way mark during which we get the other issues sorted out so that they can have a crack at being drug free.
If we on the other hand say "Here's your methodone, piss off" that's using it to warehouse them and that's a bad use of it.

Now I'll anticipate you'll say that some people will abuse it and just deliberatly stay on it and not try to move off, because "They don't really want to", well that's their loss. It's still a useful program.

Konstantin


Konstaintin there loss or there gain all depends? if it helps and dont need to come of its still cheap affordable clean safe!
there is talk about addiction being disease that's its not that they dont want too come of it , it works for them and they can remain safe and productive v's miserable and hopeless

oh i just wanted to add that what i wrote about NA - at times more often than not it can be very unhealthy down here - with people going there on the nod etc and actually trying to deal and picking up each other when those are vulnerable - but in saying that i suppose it does work for some.

I'd expect more from you purpleprincess in your reply. I am far from confident in supporting the position you propose.

Dominic PP Has had some valid points too , i dont feel all health care workers should have to agree just because its in the healthworkers manual im glad PP thinks outside the sqaure need alot more health workers like that , i dont want to drag anyone into anything but were all adults here , lets all hear your theorys and treatment options then, Im open to them skeet

education i guess is the key , ive said my bit dont want to drag it on here are some more links to read !!!!!!!!!!
look here
http://www.methadone.org/
and here
http://dpt.samhsa.gov/patient/index.htm
and here
http://www.methadonesupport.org/

PP agree ive tried NA/AA for years IT DID NOT WORK!!!!! but they still seem to want to bash the pharm options, i dont go bashing them like i said its there way or the highway and well if it works for you fine like i said whatever works its not always the majority rules ...it didnt 4 me *My Story* skeet

From the "AToD:Clinical guidelines for evidence based nursing".

There is a range of pharmacological therapies that are effective in the treatment of alcohol, opioid and nicotine dependence in Australia. Evidence-based pharmacotherapies are yet to be developed for psychostimulant dependence.
...
While some people can achieve abstinence without the use of medication, others require prescribed medication for weeks, months or years.

Longer term perscribing of medications in this domain is known as replacement therapy. (e.g. methadone for opioid dependence)
...

Pharmacotherapy requires extensive medical and psychosocial assessment, supervision, monitoring and regular review (at least three monthly for stable clients, more frequently for those at risk), and should be part of a broader program of general health care (including dental), counselling, management of comorbid conditions and social support.



The use of methadone maintenance has a strong evidence base particularly in areas of reducing criminal activity and illicit opioid use, thus reducing the cost to society and improving health and well being of individuals. Methadone is one of the most researched treatment modalities for dependence, and an overall assessment of its effectiveness can be made with more confidence than for other treatments.
...
The incidence of injecting and using additional opioids such as heroin while on
methadone drops significantly.



Methadone has been the gold standard pharmacotherapy for opioid dependence for over 30 years.

A less flattering way to read that is "There has been little progress in the last 30 years".


Poor outcomes have been demonstrated regarding people with antisocial personality disorder, poor social support, polydrug dependence, and genetic risk of substance dependence (Young et al. 2002, p. 91)


Konstantin

actually Buprenorphine has come out on the market so it hasnt been methadone for 30yrs !!!


Polly drug use or psychiatric distress can be majorly alievated with the right dose ! people who are underdosed suffer more mentally use more things like benzodiazepines alchol , when your adequately dosed , you do tend not to think obsess crave about anything else and get on with the day with alot more ease not be underdosed and exhausted ,An unfortunate thing is that many clinics underdose people, and many patients are afraid to get on an adequate dose for fear that tapering will take longer. so they stay on a very low dose and then wonder why the medication does not work very well for them. It is a commitment, no doubt about it, but if you are going to get on Methadone/Bup , then you may as well get the full benefit of treatment. Studies show that the minimum time frame for people to be in treatment before attempting a taper and have any kind of chance for success is 3 years Max . as also some ppl need split dosing too as it may not hold the 24hrs personally im ok under 20mg as side effects become to bothersome for me, i mean in 8yrs if i wanted to abuse it id be at 100mg or more, and its unfortunate that some will divert/sell and abuse it, but then youll be back on A stream with 1 takehome dose a week if you do , compared to 5, well i get more than that even but im minority there because ive been on it a while, ! I am no different from, say, a pain patient who takes their medication exactly as prescribed and whose pain is under control. If our medication were suddenly withdrawn, we would both be sick, because we are dependent on it. Lots of people are dependent on daily meds to keep them healthy--think how sick a diabetic would get if their insulin were withdrawn! Are they "addicted" to insulin? It's not for everyone--but many people do not give it a fair chance, on an adequate dose, for a sufficient amount of time and that is a shame. It is mostly due to clinic BS or family friends societys attitudes , which is really a shame.

Konstaintin there loss or there gain all depends? if it helps and dont need to come of its still cheap affordable clean safe!
there is talk about addiction being disease which may or may not require life long medication much like life long NA/AA


Skeet I have posted before that I consider Methadone to be a *vast* improvement over formula X heroin+ other crap down a backlane.

But I also consider being drug free a vast improvemnent over methadone.
Not in some judgemental sense, but in a health sense. You may well say it's like insulin, that's fine, but I don't know to many people who if they could be free of their insulin regime wouldn't consider it better.

The analogy holds quite deeply Uncontrolled diabeties/unregulated use, insulin controlled diabeties/methadone controlled addiction, cured(albeit this is not possible just yet) diabeties/addiction free.

So ofcourse he has gained, by loss I mean relative to one who suceeds in getting off both.

The "my way or the high way" is the biggest problem in the addiction therapy scene, "There can be ONLY ONE!" may be a good theme for the highlander but it sucks in this debate.
This applies to all factions in the debate.

Konstantin

Hmm I've just finsihed up reading on it,
The alternate daily dosing is a big plus, it's also got some other nice features, so I'll stand corrected there. Thanks, it's good stuf to know.

Konstantin.

Konstantin hey i know the whole thing is a huge debate really.. i understand from outsiders too..There is alot methadone clients switching over to buprenorphine, because of less side effects well way less than methadone infact i felt none whilst on it , but it doesnt agree with some i had headaches on it, and yeah it lasts longer but im seeing the same pattern of long term maintanance again ppl staying on it longer , they initially thought of it more of a detox and short term maintanance drug but i guess that's fine again if it helps just another option to choose from methadone or buprenorphine, least there are becoming choices, but you may see Bup patients in 8-20yrs too id imagine, i have mixed feelings on lifer's i dont think you can say about anything ill be on it or have it or live it for life?? today is good that's good enough for me :) take a day at a time..anyhow like religioun its always going be big debates on it addiction there was a movie made a bit back called Methadonia it showed the really bad clinics in NYC people using benzo's with there methadone and nodding all day but they didnt show the positive side the people working etc might not of held the same shock value audience though to boring huh normal, there was some not happy methadone advocates about after it aired on HBO , Michael Negroponte made the documentary ya can grab it on torrent, ive seen it and to outsiders it would look really bad,could see why ppl go ooaaa! i guess it will hit here soon too and people will see the bad more hysteria ....take care skeet

here is a board that has a debate going interesting just click on Generic forum bit u see the all topics

www.topix.net/drug/methadone

OTT a little bit i can see them going the same way with this Ice epidemic my money is on pharm!!


Well, I've done all I can to explain my opinion, and why it is my opinion. and I have thought long and hard about this. If you define "addiction" only as whether or not you will have withdrawal symptoms if you stop taking the medication, then yes, all pain patinets are addicted, all methadone patients are addicted, people who take antidepressants are addicted, people who take BP meds are addicted, etc. However, the commonly accepted medical definition of addiction goes beyond mere physical dependence and takes into consideration psychosocial aspects as well, as listed in the above article I posted. If those are taken into consideration, the picture changes radically. And, if this were a mere matter of "semantics", don't you think the medical and scientific community, and those who put together the DSM IV, would know that and act accordingly, labeling everyone who takes any type of dependence producing medication "addicts"?

There is a TIDAL WAVE of difference in my life being on methadone as opposed to being in active addiction. That is because I never took it as prescribed if I could help it, , I did not follow any sort of recovery program, my life was in chaos. This time around, things are completely different and as a result, my life is completely different. methadone patients have spent 40 years now dealing with stigma and prejudice against their treatment "It's just trading one drug for another", "You can't be in real recovery unless you are in a 12 step group and/or completely abstinent", "methadone rots your bones and turns your insides orange", etc etc. After spending 20 years trying, with all my might, to do what these people said would result in "real" recovery and which only resulted in abject misery, I finally found a treatment to get my life back on track and I am finally where I want to be in life--happy, responsible, productive,--and yes, I get a bit defensive when people try to tell me that is not "real", and that it is some low grade substitute for "the real thing". goodluck to you all..in whatever path you choose for recovery :)

Skeet,

well written and well explained :) i am thinking there is nothing more either you or myself can write to explain our OPINION. :p

But overall i think whatever works for the individual is all that matters, whether that is methadone/ bup, 12 steps, CBT, rehab etc etc etc :rolleyes: we are all different - different strokes for different folks basically.

Good luck to everyone who is on the road to recovery - it is a long and winding road which sometimes has detours but one day at a time and whatever else gets u through. :)

Konstantin,

you wrote:

My personal view of maintainance is that it is like supported accomodation.
Some people get a house without it.
Some people move through supported accomodation and straight into normal housing.
Some people take a long time.
Some people have so many issues they will live in supported housing for the rest of their lives.

Does this mean that supported housing is bad?
Ofcourse not.

I think the proper use of maintainance is like a half way mark during which we get the other issues sorted out so that they can have a crack at being drug free.
If we on the other hand say "Here's your methodone, piss off" that's using it to warehouse them and that's a bad use of it.

Now I'll anticipate you'll say that some people will abuse it and just deliberatly stay on it and not try to move off, because "They don't really want to", well that's their loss. It's still a useful program.

?

Maybe your prop right mate,
but that not even what we were talking about.

Skeet,

You are so determined to make everyone believe that it is not possible to be completly free of drugs!

You are trying to make our that I'am putting down people on methadone - even after I have wrote :

Let be real here - If you want to live the rest of your life on methadone, (and i'am sure still using aswell) fine!

But thats not what i'am talking about.

I'am talking about total freedom from drugs.

If you don't believe this is possible for you, I'am very sad for you.

You make out I doing people harm - yer I'am doing people harm by giving them hope and telling them it is possible to be completly free of ALL drugs.

YOu say that I did choose the right treatment?

wtf are you taling about? You have been on methdane for 8 years and still on

and I have been totally clean (NO drugs) for 3 years

mmm, All I can say is 'who would you listen to?'

Madlion,

No that is not what Skeet is trying to say or do - we all know that people can be free of drugs - well u are living proof - are you not!!

And i would just like to comment that not ALL people on the methadone program use as well - yes of course there is always the minority that will continue to use and abuse the system. Just like there are people who abuse the Centrelink system as well - once again a minority.

LIke i have mentioned i have a lot of clients on methadone / bup who do not use any other illegal substance - and this is effective FOR THEM and it works FOR THEM.

I think u are missing the point in what we are saying (we have our own opinions but i tend to agree with Skeet on this one) that it is each to their own and there is no RIGHT or WRONG answer - it is solely a matter of OPINION. I am not saying i am right and i am not saying or implying that u are WRONG.

Also like i have said we are all individuals with different needs, opinions, issues etc etc - so what works for you may not work for me and vice versa - i am sure ur gettin the picture here.

You are very passionate about this topic and i understand and as i have mentioned CONGRATULATIONS on being drug free for 3 years that is a huge achievement - but hey what is the problem or issue if somebody is on the methadone program effectively and following the procedures and not abusing it?????

This is what i am not understanding from you? U obvsiouly see methadone as a drug - to a point sure it is - do you smoke cigarrettes??? do u drink tea or coffee???? do you take panadol for a headache?????? These are all considered addictive substances - well maybe not panadol - come on Madlion u are obviously an educated man - not everything is black and white - more often than not alot of grey areas.

Ok guys well I think Tom has all ready mentioned that we welcome debate here, especially informative debate based on experience such as eventuated on this thread lets just keep in mind we have to respect each others opinions and views. Everyone will have different opinions and for the most part it is all about whatever works to help people get back on their feet who are dealing with addictions.

I'm might be risking throwing fuel on the fire here but I have a question and would be very interested in some responses especially from Skeet (personal experience) and Konstantin (medical view) What I'm wondering is could there be physicological advantages of being on methodone or bup along the lines of some one thinking "OK while im taking this it's keeping me free from other drugs."

I've always wondered about the use of say anti depressants or even nicotine patches whether there is an element of almost tricking the brain that taking or using whatever is helping abstain from other things.

Don't get me wrong I'm not stupid or simplifying the medical and chemical properties of these treatments just wondered if it's possible that a treatment might work for someone because they believe it is working.

Well I'll throw it out there and wait for some responses.:o

well in my opinion not that u asked for mine - of course it can - mind over matter.

I have been quite open that i take anti depressants - do they work or do i believe they work????

I really dont know - but whatever the case being - they make me feel better and come out of that dark place that i was in before i started taking them. In saying that i thought i was ok and stopped taking them and fell like a tonne of bricks and crashed - but hey who knows - my question back to that is if it works does it matter???

I asked for everyone's opinion,:) I'm just interested in Skeet and Konstantin's because of their backgrounds and you are right as long as it works who cares, once again what ever works for the individual is all that is important. It's just a question I've always wondered about so saw this as an opportunity to throw it out there to people with personal experience. Thanks for your honesty PP it is greatly appreciated here.:)

thats ok Punter and i as just adding a little bit of humour to a very serious thread. Didnt mean it in a negative or it wasnt a personal attack im sorry u took it like that ok.

Its all good!

Don't get me wrong I'm not stupid or simplifying the medical and chemical properties of these treatments just wondered if it's possible that a treatment might work for someone because they believe it is working

Well punter, this is sort of true - but as I sad a few times now - once that drug is taken away - they will return being an addict - because the have never delt will the physiological apects of there addiction.

They are still 'self comforting' - I'am sure all you 'professional' know about this.

I've sad it before and I'll say it again - dealing only with the physical side of addiction will never really set a person free from drugs.

Look - I have never sad I have anything against methadone (if it is used in the right way). - But the problem is people just stay on it for as long as they want (and the doctors will help them - why? because they don't know any other way to deal with it them selfs)

Wants point of staying on it for 10 years? - well the truth is these people believe if they just stay on it for long enough - there rest of there problems will just dissapear - but they don't!!!

They thing that 'if I just get the rest of my life together - then I wont be an addict anymore'. - Getting 'the rest of your life together' will never solve the problem of your ADDICTION.

Madlion,

Regardind staying on methadone "for as long as they want" - i know in the Illawarra we have 2 methadone clinics - a government one and a non government one - well the govt one is free to those on the program and the waiting list is miles long - anyway they are more likely to reduce the methadone as requested now as for the private clinic - its costs so much per day so in my opinion is run like a business for profit - they are less likely to reduce.

True i do agree with the psychological side of addiction that is has to be dealt with to deal with the actual addiction - and whilst i was working at the rehab i seen a lot of the same faces during my time there - and this was the one thing i really preached is getting 1:1 counselling to deal with teh issues that brought them to use in the first place.

unfortunately addiction can be a viscious cycle that keeps going around and around and you are one of the lucky and obviously "strong" ones that is now heroin free - but unfortunately not everybody has your strength.

Hi Punter,

It's hard to say.
The official view is that the user does not crave heroin because heroin is a means to an end, that end being the stimulation of opiate receptors. So if the methadone is stimulating them, they don't crave heroin.

And that the majority of health benefits come from getting that stimulation through a clean and measured dose by an oral route. Rather than adulerated substances introduced by needles of dubious hygiene directly into your circulation.

Unofficially I think nearly all opiate abuse is initially due to psychological pain and if the abuse continues long enough physical addiction then takes over as the primary driving force. This was my opinion long before the studies came out that showed opiates dampened mental anguish as well as physical pain.

I can say for sure that methadone is NOT a placebo.
It's a ridgy didge opiate.
So the craving reduction they get is real not a product of their imagination.

You can use a placebo, the placebo effect is a real effect but not as strong as real methadone.

I hope that answers it.
Konstantin.

Ok guys well I think Tom has all ready mentioned that we welcome debate here, especially informative debate based on experience such as eventuated on this thread lets just keep in mind we have to respect each others opinions and views. Everyone will have different opinions and for the most part it is all about whatever works to help people get back on their feet who are dealing with addictions.

I'm might be risking throwing fuel on the fire here but I have a question and would be very interested in some responses especially from Skeet (personal experience) and Konstantin (medical view) What I'm wondering is could there be physicological advantages of being on methodone or bup along the lines of some one thinking "OK while im taking this it's keeping me free from other drugs."

I've always wondered about the use of say anti depressants or even nicotine patches whether there is an element of almost tricking the brain that taking or using whatever is helping abstain from other things.

Don't get me wrong I'm not stupid or simplifying the medical and chemical properties of these treatments just wondered if it's possible that a treatment might work for someone because they believe it is working.

Well I'll throw it out there and wait for some responses.:o

Hi Punter, No definately not re believing something works it does work scenario..I can give you an Example a while back i taperd down from pressure of family/friends etc I had constant anxiety couldn't sleep etc.... My mind was thinking about methadone 24/7.. soon as i went back up presto forgot bout methadone slept like a baby etc... Now you could attribute this to w/d symptoms but wait there's more the same thing happend when i came of it ummm 5yrs back..although worse i had Paws syndrome awfull depression etc etc For me to give you an 100% honest answer id prob more then likely have to go away for 6months long term rehab to have a clearer answer.. although ive done rehab almost 1yr before and NA/AA i kept relapsing, i felt nothing but stressssssssssssss that whole yr and like something was missing ! I've done research in area's of ppl coming tapering down of methadone alot come back to it doesnt mean all Much like MadLion which im not against living a drug free life...I just wonder the qaulity of his/her life so id like to hear that Madlion..:) Are u working etc????? im happy your drug free etc.. do u use at all?? alchol id like some more info if thats ok..... i hope that helped a little Punter..

well in my opinion not that u asked for mine - of course it can - mind over matter.

I have been quite open that i take anti depressants - do they work or do i believe they work????

I really dont know - but whatever the case being - they make me feel better and come out of that dark place that i was in before i started taking them. In saying that i thought i was ok and stopped taking them and fell like a tonne of bricks and crashed - but hey who knows - my question back to that is if it works does it matter???


Hi PP much the same with methadone? scary huh :(

Don't get me wrong I'm not stupid or simplifying the medical and chemical properties of these treatments just wondered if it's possible that a treatment might work for someone because they believe it is working

Well punter, this is sort of true - but as I sad a few times now - once that drug is taken away - they will return being an addict - because the have never delt will the physiological apects of there addiction.

They are still 'self comforting' - I'am sure all you 'professional' know about this.

I've sad it before and I'll say it again - dealing only with the physical side of addiction will never really set a person free from drugs.

Look - I have never sad I have anything against methadone (if it is used in the right way). - But the problem is people just stay on it for as long as they want (and the doctors will help them - why? because they don't know any other way to deal with it them selfs)

Wants point of staying on it for 10 years? - well the truth is these people believe if they just stay on it for long enough - there rest of there problems will just dissapear - but they don't!!!

They thing that 'if I just get the rest of my life together - then I wont be an addict anymore'. - Getting 'the rest of your life together' will never solve the problem of your ADDICTION.


Madlion as you well know methadone gives you the time stability so you can deal with those issues but if it take 10yrs -20yrs who's to say ? and well some ppl just feel better on things, issues or not i know alot of ppl who dont have issues too psychological not every addict has to have councilling...... there problems dont just dissapear no they get better with time like if you where on no medication :) ppl stay on diabetic meds for 20yrs and there problem dont dissapear? well there's alot of talk about addiction like that too now... why change what aint broke? who know's whats down the track myself I'm not a lifer, I've heard some ppl will stay on methadone for life..me well the right time ill know but if its anything like that first time forget it.....and not just that', its relapse etc.. I mean are ppl going to stand around your funeral and say Wow he/she was methadone free good on them..but theyre dead now !and that's not an exggeration google it? skeet

pps Madlion im curious how did u get of methadone what method? what do you do know work study? family skeet

This is a Dr's Example not here thankfully....

Some "words of wisdom" from Dr. Drew's website:

"Methadone, however, is not a perfect solution. It is expensive, most methadone clinics have waiting lists of up to a year or more, methadone itself is addictive, and methadone withdrawal can cause anxiety, panic attacks and insomnia. Methadone treatment can last for years, even decades.

Methadone is not expensive!!!!!!!!!!!! here anyhow

Recently, a treatment called "rapid detox" has been in the news. This involves the injection of a reversal agent such as Naltrexone that will, effectively, push the narcotic out of the brain. This treatment is also expensive but is a one-time cost, rather than methadone, which is ongoing. Other means of treatment include Clonidine and antidepressants, but probably the most crucial factor that divides successful rehab from unsuccessful is membership in a twelve-step recovery group such as Narcotics Anonymous. Addicts who attend daily or twice daily meetings and work closely with a sponsor usually have the best chance of staying heroin-free. "

And then there's this:


not only will heroin immediately activate heroin addiction, but any drug that you are exposed to that stimulates that same reward system in the same way will either cause you to become addicted to that drug or direct you quickly back to heroin. You must swear off alcohol, benzodiazepines, opiates, marijuana, hallucinogens, cocaine, and speed for good.
I suggest you contact Narcotics Anonymous (www.na.org) and involve yourself in a 12-step recovery program. Go to twice-daily meetings and obtain a sponsor. Without that degree of structure and connectedness, it is impossible to tolerate the discomfort associated with opiate abstinence, both from a physical standpoint and an emotional one.


And This:

"I can almost guarantee that your relationship with alcohol will progress without AA or some other treatment program, and the consequences on your life may be profound. I also know that people who enter the program and work through the steps with a sponsor can substantially change their emotional world and find a more gratifying, happier way of life. I urge you to call AA today and start attending meetings. "

And some "advice" for the boyfriend of a girl mandated to AA:

"The most important task for you is to involve yourself in a codependency recovery program such as Al-Anon or Narc-Anon. In these programs, you will engage in the 12-step meeting, get a sponsor and work the steps. It is very important that significant people in the addict's life change and grow as he or she changes and grows. Otherwise, you will suddenly create forces that keep them in their disease.
Note: Don't be threatened by her recovery or the connections she makes with her recovery peers. These relationships are essential to her survival at this point"

And some advice for someone asking if pot smoking is a problem:

"In my experience it is extremely rare for someone to actually stop using pot without some intervention. Twelve-step programs, such as Marijuana Anonymous, have the highest probability of being successful. Many people who attempt to stop using marijuana without some treatment eventually switch over to some other drug, most commonly alcohol or speed. "

But, gee, Dr Drew--what if my parent abuses drugs?

"you can do something called an "intervention." A professional therapist gathers the important people in that person's life. Together, everyone plays out a scripted confrontation on how the disease has affected these important people. They require the addict to get treatment or make it clear to the identified patient that they will no longer be a part of the addict's life.
I would urge you to focus on taking care of yourself. This includes creating important connections and relationships with people who have had to deal with addicts. A 12-step process and a co-dependency recovery program is a very effective way to help you when confronted with this problem. "

But Dr Drew--should I feel guilty that my ex is HIV positive?

"If a therapist is not accessible to you, you might consider looking into a codependency 12-step group"



Anyone starting to see a pattern here?:eek:


I think what people are saying is that holding out 12 step groups to be the end all and be all of treatment for medical, biochemical disease, when the actual groups hold themselves out to be nothing more than support groups at best and have an extremely low rate of success by their own statistics is medically irresponsible. In addition, it bothers me that this doctor makes statements like "the most crucial factor dividing successful rehab from unsuccessful is membership in a 12 step group" (absolutely false), and that "12 step programs have the highest probability of being successful" in stopping maijuana use (also completely false), and that people just automatically believe him due to the ingrained, widespread usage of this in my opinion very outdated and scientifically full of holes and inaccurate "treatment".

I would have virtually no problem with the 12 step groups in and of themselves if they were not taken as only way to recover by 99.9% of the "recovery" community and if such a deaf ear and blind eye were not turned to any evidence to the contrary by their supporters. I started out feeling just fine about AA and came away sickened, demoralized and disgusted after a (very) thorough investigation over a period of (very) thorough immersion and yes, I do feel passionately about it. And yes, I and many others were judged judged and judged again for being on methadone by those in NA and AA both. Though Bill Wilson said (and I believe meant) that his hat was off to anyone who found another way, the groups he has left in his wake do not seem to feel that way at all (with some exceptions, of course). And I really fail to understand how they can say that the AA program only works for alcoholics, but if you change two words in the steps and call the meetings "NA" instead, THEN the program works for addicts as well? There are very very few "pure alcoholics" in this day and age, and most are over 80, but I believe (from my AA readings) that the original motive in dividing the groups was to seperate the socially acceptable middle class, suit wearing drunks from the low life junkies invading their meetings with whom they could not "identify". Next thing you know there are spinoff groups because pillheads cannot ID with heroin addicts, and coke addicts cannot ID with potheads, and those who take benzos cannot ID with those who take opiates, and those who take Xanax cannot ID with those who take Valium, and so on. It just gets kind of silly after awhile. Yawnnnnnnnn!

Hey Skeet thanks for your views regarding the physiological aspects of taking methadone. Very interesting my inquisitive mind still wonders if the fact you knew you were tapering down led to you thinking about methadone all the time. But basically what you and PP say is right, if what you are doing is working and providing a higher quality of life etc then thats what matters. Whatever works for the individual.

With regards to the 12 steps programs. I can't believe anyone would say the most important part of anyone's recovery is a 12 step program. In an ongoing recovery it may be crucial but speaking from my GA experience a 12 step program can be of great emotional benefit but the individual still needs to commit to changing their lives etc. I mean my experiences are not extended to a chemical dependance and I would assume dealing with the withdrawals etc would initially be the most important start to the recovery.

Anyway thanks for you honesty in this important thread it is greatly appreciated.:)

Firstly I would just like to say hello to you all as I am new to this forum.

I have read through (most) of the post's in this thread and I can understand where a lot of you are coming from.

Though I have never been addicted to or a user illicit drugs, I have experimented with a few "not so serious" drugs and I consider myself extremely lucky that I never fell into the trap of addiction. I think back over my teenage years in particular and some of the different friends who I had at different times, and I can see that a life of drug abuse could have been just around the corner had I not chosen the path that I took - not that I was aware of it at the time, it wasn't an actual conscious decision that I made...ie: I didn't say "these people are bad, I have to stop hanging out with them..or else...." Certain things just fell into place for me at particular times which prevented a life that could have (possibly) gone in a different direction. And fortunately I am blessed to have had a good childhood, a decent family and nothing that happened to me that could have been potentially psycologically damaging.

However, I did become heavily addicted to ciggarettes around the age of 13 and was smoking a packet a day until I after turned 25. I thought that I was one of those people who would never ever be able to quit, but with WILLPOWER AND THE ACTUAL WANT TO QUIT I managed to do it cold turkey with a little help of nicotine patches for the first 2 weeks. So yes...I definately do know what it's like to have an addiction and I do know how difficult it is to quit.

And before I get flamed...I am NOT comparing the severity of opiate addiction to nicotine addiction...I'm just saying that I know what it's like to have an addiction and I know how hard it can be to quit.

I have been in a close relationship with a MMT patient. This person was on an extremely high dose of methadone, I believe their dose was way too high as they were constantly nodding etc. After a long time of wondering when they would finally want to even try to quit, it became apparent to me that this person did not want to quit, was not ready to quit physically or psychologically. They were not even willing to taper down their dose, because they were simply...enjoying their legal high. Without going into anymore unnecessary detail...I am no longer in contact with this person due to the pain it was causing me with their lifestyle, constant lies, psychological abuse and the unwillingness to try to be free from their chemical handcuffs...well not at that point in time anyway, there was no doubt in my mind if they had stopped taking methadone they would have immediately reverted back to illegal use. Maybe sometime in the future things may change.

Being close to this person who was taking methadone and educating myself with it, as well as other types of drug use has enabled me to be able to understand and sympathize with people who are addicted to drugs.

People do not choose to get addicted to drugs.

People do not choose to become addicted to alcohol/ciggarettes/sex/caffeine/chocolate etc etc...

Skeet, congratulations for being 8 years free from illicit drugs. You are on methadone which you seem to be quite content with, but sometime in the future do you want to be completely free from all chemical dependencies?

Madlion, congratulations quitting illegal drugs and methadone. It's serious stuff and you obviously decided that enough was enough...you no longer wanted to rely on chemical's to get you through the day. I commend you for having the willpower to quit. But...that was your choice and that worked for you. Different strokes for different folks. You have no right to criticize Skeet for being on methadone for 8 years, because this is obviously what works, and Skeet seems to be quite happy and content living life this way.

In my opinion, methadone should not be used long term, but be used as more of a supplement...a tool to assist people to discontinue using illegal opiates forever, but not everyone is in a position to be able to do this - Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world, and yes, I understand that some people lack certain chemicals in their brain so they do feel more "normal" when using opiates (as a previous poster said...similar to people requiring anti-depressants due to a lack of seratonin). Personally I would much prefer all drug abuser's be on methadone, rather than certain people in our society having to live a life of crime to pay for their habits. I'm not saying that every heroin user steals (the person that I knew, was in fact very wealthy), but you cannot deny that a lot of heroin and other drug user's do have to resort crime to support their habit...right? Im not generalising, I see it everyday in my line of work so I do know what I'm talking about.

At the end of the day, what I wanted to say was most people CAN stop using methadone, but the time has to be right for that particular person...they have to REALLY WANT to quit and they also need personal WILLPOWER to do it successfully.

Also Madlion, I too am interested in finding out how you stopped taking methadone, and what your current situation is like. Do you work/study have a family to look after? What was your motivation to stop using methadone? Maybe you can offer help and different strategies to other people to help them quit rather than criticize them for still using it. Afterall...there is nothing that boils my blood more than seeing someone who lived their whole life being overweight...and then suddenly slim down, and then hearing them say things like "Damn...look at that fatty!" - Or whatever...

Hello IMHO

i agree with a lot of what u are saying and yes i have never been addicted to illicit drugs but i do smoke cigarettes and i drink tea.

I also believe that yes people can give up when the time is right - but in my experience working where i do a lot of people their confidence and self esteem are so low - mostly due to their addiction - that they cant see that they have what it takes - with my clients i focus on building their self esteem rather than focusing fully on stopping their drug use - as if they are not ready they are just going to hear me going blah blah blah - and this is not very productive - as where once i can get them to have eye contact with me that is productive - making them feel good about themselves - that is productive etc etc and then down the track we focus on their drug use and where its taking them and pros / cons etc etc - and usually at this stage they are ready to make the next step whether it be rehab, methadone. subutex, cold turkey, home detox - we explore all the available options and then i give them the numbers so they can ring etc etc. NOt saying what i do is successful - but hey as workers we can only provide the information and support the hard work is up to them.

As mentioned i have a lot of clients on methadone - various doses - some high some low - and hey it works for them - several are working, they have their children back in their care - and they work around it - you wouldnt even know if they didnt tell you.

There is always going to be a debate good versus bad with anything like this - but overall i do strongly believe it is up to the individual and who are we to judge them by what they do as i dont like being judged by what i do.

EQUALITY!!!!!!

Hi IMHO there's an old saying no such thing as high dose or low dose just the right dose then it works great...skeet, yes one day ill come of it i dont like the term lifer..:rolleyes:

I thought this may be intresting for people who are curious re short term long term vs... skeet

http://www.mssm.edu/msjournal/68/PAGE62_74.pdf

wtf! when have I critasied people for using methadone??

go have a cry why don't ya's!

mate, my queston is why are yous all agreeing that you have to be on methadone or some other crap??

oh, yer, I just was stonger then everyone else. thats complete bullshit!!

I was a bad an addict as you can get. I would rob from anyone to get a hit, shoot up pills, and what eva.

what made me different? I would have rather been dead then then be stuck on drrugs the rest my life.

skeet, you want me to teel you how I got off and stayed off drugs? why would I tell you anything for 1 - you have all ready said you are happy on methadone (so why would I?) second of all - you would propablly reason everything that I say out with you reasoning - and third if anyone was dead seriious - they would have contacted me personally to speak to me.

wtf! when have I critasied people for using methadone??

From the dictionary:
Criticize -
1. to censure or find fault with.
2. to judge or discuss the merits and faults of..
3. to find fault; judge unfavorably or harshly.
4. to make judgments as to merits and faults.

Some example's of your criticizm (directed at Skeet):
Mate, it's retards like you that are the reason why people can never get off drugs!

You go around telling people that 'your just a addict' and 'you will always be an addict'.

You need methadone, just like a diabetic needs there insuline everday, and noboby every get to the root cause, and reason of why they acually are addicts.

Well, Sorry if I offended you. It's people like you that piss me off! Look around at all the fucken addicts you seen.

...and here:
But your happy to give every one your thoughts and statistic on everything about drugs - relapasing ect - and you can't even stay off methadone!!

Oh, you will say - I consider myself clean!!

Mate, what credituals do you have to be give advice?? eh?

Telling people who are trying to get off drugs - your just an addicted, and you , might have to be on methadone the rest of your life.

You want to know why I'am pissed - I'll tell you -

(I know) There is such a feeling of helpless when you are trying to stop using -

And all you are doing is feeding into it.

It people like you that had me feel so fucked and helpless when I was trying to stop using and made me think that I could never stop using.

If I had of kept on listening to your people with your sort of shit and reasoning (inc methadone clinics), I would not be clean now.

Of course I'am mad

...and here:
Wants point of staying on it for 10 years? - well the truth is these people believe if they just stay on it for long enough - there rest of there problems will just dissapear - but they don't!!!

They thing that 'if I just get the rest of my life together - then I wont be an addict anymore'. - Getting 'the rest of your life together' will never solve the problem of your ADDICTION.

I'm sorry, but if thats not criticizing someone then I'm not sure what is.

Not everyone has issues they need to work through before they can quit drugs, just because this was the case with you...does not mean every other drug user is alike.

skeet, you want me to teel you how I got off and stayed off drugs? why would I tell you anything for 1 - you have all ready said you are happy on methadone (so why would I?) second of all - you would propablly reason everything that I say out with you reasoning - and third if anyone was dead seriious - they would have contacted me personally to speak to me.

A number of people have asked you why you chose to get off and how you managed to stay off. Why do we need to contact you personally when you're quite happy to post in a public forum where other's speak openly about their issues?

Just because certain people are content living their life on methadone, maybe their opinion will change in the future and they will remember your advice. If your happy enough to post here, then why are you opposed to telling us about your own success story? It may just help someone, you know...